Welcome back to the Oxendine Law podcast. Today we're going to be talking about divorce and addiction. How you protect your children, how you protect your case. Unfortunately, this is something real. We always think it's unfortunate as do courts when we see these type of scenarios. But alcohol addiction is real. Drug addiction is real. And if that is something that you're facing in your case, you need to know how to address it and what a court will likely do with it. Christine, not really a big difference between alcohol and drug use. They're both an addiction. I think courts see both of those the same way. And fortunately, courts have policies and procedures that they can put in place in a case to protect the other spouse from the addiction and the abuse of addiction and also the children. But it's also important to make sure you have proof of that, right? Because courts also see all the time where, you know, both parties are coming in accusing each other of alcohol is the one you see most common, right? He's an alcoholic and he drinks too much and she's an alcoholic and she drinks too much and she drinks two glasses of wine every night. Well, drinking two glasses of wine every night, it may be an addiction, but is an addiction to the point to where it's going to impact the case? Maybe not. >> Right. I mean, I think, and I've touched on this in podcasts in the past, um, is this something that every night he's drank a beer before, but you know, drank a beer with dinner and he has another one before he goes to bed and he's been doing this for years and suddenly I think it's a problem. Um, because I'm in a divorce situation. Also, emotions and tensions run high in these situations. So, I can tell you I can have two glasses of wine out with my girlfriends having a good time and those emotions are different than if I were in the middle of a heated argument with my spouse and I'm on my second glass of wine and that filter goes and I decide to give him peace of my mind. Right? So, yes, they you can have situations where the same amount of alcohol used to not be a problem and is now a problem only because of the heightened emotions and the situation that you find yourself in. >> I'll tell you all a funny story. So, um this was not too long ago. had a client that was screaming that her husband was an alcoholic. He had accused our client of also drinking too much, but not as heavily as she was accusing him of drinking. So, long story short, one of the things that we like to do in our case is to request a PET test. So, a PET test is a type of alcohol test that will show a pattern of alcohol use over a long period of time. And that's really good because what you're trying to prove when you say somebody's an alcoholic is that they've got a pattern of behavior that they've got a history of over consuming alcohol. And a PET test will go back, I think, 90 days or so and show the levels of drinking. And that may be light, it may be moderate, or it may be heavy. All right. So, long story short, we have our hearing and we request that the husband undergo a PET test. The judge ordered both parties to take a PET test, >> which is common, by the Okay. Yeah. Keep that in mind when you're accused on the other side. Just >> chances are you're both going to do it. Yeah. >> You're both going to take the test. But long story short, we get the PET test results back and ironically my client's alcohol use was higher than her husband's. Now, fortunately, um both were within moderate levels. Now, moderate means not light, not heavy, but somewhere in the middle. And the court found that and and both parties were moderate. It's just that our client's levels were a little bit higher than the husbands. But the court found that neither party's level of consumption of alcohol rose to the level of needing to address any type of alcoholism as it relates to supervised or limited parenting time. So, but be careful what you ask for is my point of that story. Yes. Because it's pot calling the kettle black, right? I mean, if if your spouse truly has an addiction and they're an alcoholic or now legal drugs are different, right? I mean, illegal is illegal. Alcohol is legal. Courts are going to have a problem if you're abusing alcohol. But if somebody's using illegal drugs, that is going to be scrutinized more carefully. But the last thing you want to do is come into court screaming that the other party has an addiction issue because a judge, if the other side accuses you of also having addiction issue, like Christine said, you're both going to have to take a test and you may end up with a worse result than you intended to have because it may come back that you're actually the abuser. So be careful with that. >> Right. Right. But if you actually have a situation where a party has an alcohol or drug addiction, then she's usually involving children, right? This is when we see this the most >> for sure. >> Um, so we're trying to protect the children. We're saying, "Judge, this other party has an alcohol problem or they've got a drug problem. I'm concerned about the safety and well-being of my children in this person's care." Then things you will commonly see a court do, and it just depends on the level of addiction, right? If this person actually is a true addict, either alcohol or illegal drugs, but they're not willing to acknowledge they've got a problem and they're not willing to get treatment, then that's when you usually would see a supervised parenting time situation. >> Sure. >> Let's say it's a situation where um somebody admits they've got a problem and they're willing to get an evaluation and get counseling and go to rehab and do all the things they're supposed to do, then you might see some type of phased in parenting time schedule. That's what I usually see. >> Yeah. Or just protections like sober link device. Um because a lot of those times what we see is if they're sober, they're a good parent. How often do you hear that? Like you'll hear the other side admit it. When he or she is sober, they're an amazing parent. It's when they start consuming that cur that worries me. So as long as they're sober, they don't need to be supervised. They're a great dad, a great mom as long as they're sober. So we have a soberling device. You test two hours before the pickup. You test at the time of pickup. And so we know they're sober, so we don't need the supervision requirement um because we know that they're sober, so everything's going to be fine. >> Yes. And then so but what you'll see, and Christine's right, um sometimes it's just testing, but then what happens when the person has the children and they don't take the test or they test positive, that's when you're going to see probably a higher level of protection and scrutiny. And usually what those orders will say, if the person doesn't test or they test positive, parenting time immediately stops and it's supervised until further notice. And then maybe the court will have another further notice that >> and then you'll see those phase end like phase one may be limited and supervised person has to get an evaluation you know they have to um comply with any recommendations from that evaluation concerning treatment and then phase two is okay we get compliance certificates from the treating physician that they're doing what they're supposed to and maybe now parenting time becomes unsupervised but maybe there's no overnight and they just gradually gradually build through the phases until they get to a standard parenting time because the goal usually is for the person to acknowledge they have a problem, stop abusing either alcohol or drugs and remain compliant with with whatever those provisions are. And the goal is we eventually get them back to a normal parenting time schedule. Now, that parent's probably never get in custody, especially if the other parents never had an addiction problem. Judges love success stories. that parent very well may end up with a standard, and I say standard, unsupervised, normal parenting time with their children if they're able to satisfy those benchmarks and get rid of their addiction issues. >> Sure. And how often do you see that, and I'm not making this as like a joke, being physicious, the reason for the addiction is the marriage. Like you've gotten to a point where your relationship has devolved into such toxicity that you are self-medicating a problem with alcohol or with drugs. And so when the problem is resolved, meaning the divorce is over, that person likely will have a success story, if that was the reason for their original addiction, if it really was just a horrible living environment, you feel stuck in this marriage, like you feel like you don't have a way out, you need an escape, etc., etc. So, a lot of times courts understand that part too. They do understand that if temporary addiction really is a thing, you know, and it can be situational addiction where I'm going through this addictive behavior, but the outside factors are the primary as opposed to something internal like an issue with depression or, you know, some sort of other medical issue inside. This is truly situational and when they're out of the situation, they don't have the need or the desire to drown themselves in alcohol anymore. So, and I do encourage anyone who's dealing with a if you're not the addict, you're the spouse of an addict, please do hope that they recover. You know, how often do you see people want to use it like it's just, oh, this is great. Can we take advantage of this? No, we'll protect your children and we'll make sure that finances are protected and other things are protected while this person is going through this hard time, but just because you're not going to be married to them anymore, like you shouldn't want to see them stay in that place of addiction or that place of just absolute chaos. Please do reach out to loved ones and to mutual friends, not to tattletail, not to gossip, but to encourage them to offer support and to see if you can build a community around this person so that they do in fact recover because you should want that. You shouldn't want to take advantage and just sort of leave them in the gutter, >> especially if you have children together because your children really they're in their best situation possible if they have a normal relationship with both parents. And so if you've got a parent that's struggling and you've got young children, your goal should be for them to recover and for them to be able to be a normal parent under normal circumstances. I got to tell you folks, it's necessary sometimes, but children don't want to be sitting in a room with a stranger and a supervisor. They hate that. That's awkward. They don't want somebody monitoring all their interactions with their parent. I mean, that interaction needs to be as normal and as mainstream as possible. So, we celebrate recovery. We want that other parent to recover and we want them to have a normal relationship with their children. The other advice I'll give you is that if you're the spouse of an addict, make sure you document um the addiction. What do I mean by that? Uh usually people that have an addiction problem, it's very easy to tell, right? Whether that's a video that you record, some people go completely crazy when they're high. I mean, they're screaming, they're yelling, they're abusive, they're cursing, they're just out of control. It is very easy. Everybody carries a little computer around on them these days. It's called a cell phone and they all have videos and they all have cameras. Take pictures. Take videos. Keep copies of communications. I mean, some of the communication from somebody, >> you can tell, right? >> You can tell without even seeing the picture on something. >> Yeah. Based on the communication they're sending. So, save that communication. You know, it's funny. I remember in some of my I mean, the amount of pictures and stuff we've seen is just wow. But I remember in one case, I don't know why this one sticks out at me, but we uh we represented the wife and she was accusing her husband of an alcoholic. He certainly was. and she had a picture of him legitimately laid out on the kitchen floor. His arms were sprawled out all over the place. He was stomach down, literally had beer cans, empty ones, just surrounding him and his pants were halfway down. His whole butt was just hanging out. I mean, obviously, right, he had passed out from drinking alcohol. So, a picture is worth a thousand words. But not to make light of the situation is a serious situation. The good news is is that if you're dealing with that, that's something that the court will take seriously. And we certainly have lots of protections and safeguards that we can put in place, not only to protect the children and protect you, but also to give that person a chance to recover, go through the steps they need to be a normal parent and hopefully that person gets there. If they don't, then the protections will be in place. >> Right? And if you are a person out there who is struggling in any way, I know that the situation a lot of times to the person who's over consuming, they feel like I'm not addicted. Addiction is not and it and you may not be, like I said, it may be a situational thing. So whether you are struggling with internal addiction to a degree that it is something that is within you, whether it's a situational thing where you find yourself overusing or abusing um to cope and to deal, know that it's not over. I do want you to know that courts do encourage that. They do want to see that success story. They do want to give you the opportunity to get better. And sometimes that either limited parenting time or whatever the situation may be isn't a punishment. it is to allow you the ability to not have to do everything at once. I've seen, and I don't want to be like gender specific or parent specific about it, but how many times have you seen moms that are just like, I can't do it anymore. I can't cook and clean and get the kids here and there and that and still try to take care of myself in any way and they just spiral out. So if the kids are just with dad a little more than half the time to give you the opportunity to get yourself together to be your best mom again like that's not a punishment. Sometimes it there are co-parents situations for a reason. If there are two people here both which are responsible for these children sometimes you just got to let the other one be responsible for a minute to give yourself an opportunity to reset. So, I want your mindset to not be that I'm being punished for my actions as much as I am given the opportunity to become a better person, become a better parent, and I do have the privilege of knowing they're cared for with the other parent while I can take a step back and work on me, become my best self, and then come back to being the best parent that I can be. So, please don't think that just because you find yourself both in a situation where you're suffering from addiction or overuse and you're also in a divorce that it's just automatically over. It's not. U find the right attorney, get somebody who's going to work with you, get you the right resources so that you can recover and that you can have a good outcome both in your divorce but also with you know your situation. >> With offices in Swani and Athens, Oxendine Law is here to guide you through every step along the way in your divorce process. Make sure you subscribe wherever you listen and we'll see you next time.